Havana dreaming

Whatever floats yer boat....as long as it's cigar related.
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Zedman05
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Re: RE: Re: Havana dreaming

Post by Zedman05 » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:16 pm

kurtdesign1 wrote:
Zedman05 wrote:The Cubans are thinking everyone with money will flock, but it prices out the rest of the world, plus the Americans that go once and then find out it is not what they hoped and don't return.
Worst news I've heard all day.
terrific pictures and commentary. Thanks Zed. I completely felt it more than when I see others' pics.
Thanks. All the positive commentary is noted, for sure. It helps to know I am on a good track, and not just spamming or seeming pretentious. I really don't post a whole ton on any forum I am on, but I think I do a bit more here than anywhere else. I just don't want you all to think I am bragging that I went and you didn't. I really do hope that we could all get together one day down there, almost like Dogwatch and Cigar Tourism teamed up. So if these pics help push you guys, I have done my job.

The over riding theme of this trip from Aussies, Canucks, English, Italians, Swiss and even Americans was:
"I wanted to get here before the Americans wreck what it is now". I am not joking when I say I heard that statement from at least 12 Americans. I believe it to be an overstating of what will happen in the short term, but who knows. Americans haven't crushed the DR. Island time is a very real thing. The Cubans labour force is not what the US is used to, so moving in fast will NEVER be an option.

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kurtdesign1
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by kurtdesign1 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:39 am

That's a really interesting point and one that may very well dovetail with some brushback I've heard regarding the "Things will all change" mentality. Why do Americans always think they have th epower to change things? What makes them (well, us) so important? You mention the Dominican in regard to "island time". You're damn right to bring that up. We've flocked to the dominican over the past generation. I know people who have been married there, retired there, vacationed there, hell, even moved there to "change" it (sorry Kip. It fit my argument too much :roll: ). The point is, Cuba is a proud nation (very, VERY). What if the American's have no impact other than price? What if the Americans will give nothing more than the catalyst for the Cuban's to do what they want? What if nothing happens? I guess that's an easy question to answer but it all makes me think that even in our haste to enjoy something before it is ruined we tend to be gluttenous pigs. Are we so thirsty for importance that we assume we'll change the world? Hell, I'd be pissed at that if I lived on the island and someone told me that I was going to change because the big bad capitalist was coming to corrupt me.
Maybe we're just not that important.

Or maybe I want to know what you all think
:geek:

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kurtdesign1
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Re: RE: Re: Havana dreaming

Post by kurtdesign1 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:45 am

Zedman05 wrote:Thanks. All the positive commentary is noted, for sure. It helps to know I am on a good track, and not just spamming or seeming pretentious. I really don't post a whole ton on any forum I am on, but I think I do a bit more here than anywhere else. I just don't want you all to think I am bragging that I went and you didn't. I really do hope that we could all get together one day down there, almost like Dogwatch and Cigar Tourism teamed up. So if these pics help push you guys, I have done my job.

The over riding theme of this trip from Aussies, Canucks, English, Italians, Swiss and even Americans was:
"I wanted to get here before the Americans wreck what it is now". I am not joking when I say I heard that statement from at least 12 Americans. I believe it to be an overstating of what will happen in the short term, but who knows. Americans haven't crushed the DR. Island time is a very real thing. The Cubans labour force is not what the US is used to, so moving in fast will NEVER be an option.
I glossed over a couple things. First, you're absolutely on the right tract. You are OBVIOUSLY not a blabber. You speak when you have something worthwhile to share (your razzing of me notwithstanding...). The fact that you say it makes your friends listen. No doubt of that fact.

Secondly, you do state that numerous other people besides Americans were worried about the American impact. I do not intend to pigeonhole Americans as being the pompous originators of such thought. I often play devil's advocate to a difficult concept and am doingso here. As an American, who loves America, I am not afraid to say difficult things about my country. It is with clear eyes and conscience that I praise and damn my nation. This is one of the times when I, perhaps, went a bit further than necessary in my comments. Hopefully you all are level headed enough to realize and not focus solely on that generalization to miss the point of the discussion.

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Kip
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by Kip » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:27 pm

Good or bad - usually bad - Americans are a fickle bunch. We tend to focus on something just as long as it's dominating the news or entertaining us for the moment. This goes even for the aforementioned generation of Americans flocking to the DR....although I'd take issue with use of the word "flocking." Less than 2% of the population here is American - and the overwhelming majority of those are not people interested in changing anything. They're retirees, living in and around the resort areas which are very much like the U.S. already. There are a lot fewer idealistic "changers" living here permanently than you'd think. Most of who you could say have "flocked" are short term visitors coming to help those here on permanent basis. The efficacy of that has caused a divide amongst many, and is an issue for another day.

I'll try and contain this, but it's a big pet peeve of mine.....

A glaring demonstration of this fickle phenomena are the legions of abandoned humanitarian aid buildings around the DR. Guess how they came to be empty? Americans. Americans who fled across the border to help out after the 2010 Haitian earthquake. They went and they stayed. [NOTE: helping Haiti is not the issue; abandoning your existing post without a Plan B is]. They came here and began something, only to abandon it entirely - leaving distressed, dependent, and embittered Dominicans in their wake. People who had not been taught how to maintain the things that were in place. I hate to hear someone say they don't contribute to a cause because "it's a handout and doesn't help...they'll just come back tomorrow for more." That's a cop-out almost every single time. The flip side of that is providing resources without any forethought or backbone to make it sustainable. Not helping out our neighbor is wrong. Helping without sustainability is aimless, and not really helping. Often, it really does boil down to giving a fish or teaching to fish.

We (my immediate cohorts and I) have tried to be extremely careful not to start programs that are directly dependent on us. Heck, I could keel over with another stroke any day. I don't want to implement something that relies on me coming up with all the contacts and resources to maintain it. That's why all of the projects with which we involve ourselves have an eye to the future when we can hand off responsibility to local folks.

With Cuba, I honestly hope the steep American impact is short-lived. A sudden influx can be beneficial as long as small enough not to generate a dependency....because once Americans realize "it's not what I expected," or "this is friggin' expensive for the same thing I can get on other islands for less," the numbers will trickle down to a "normal" level. In this case, short-term influx of resources is useful. If the influx is massive and long-lasting and then drops off precipitously, the people may have become dependent and crash hard. That may have changed things, but it hasn't improved anything. I'll hold out hope that it remains steady and consistent....but Americans rarely do anything moderate.
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kurtdesign1
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by kurtdesign1 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:51 pm

It is widely understood that Kip is the smarter of your two co-hosts, folks (myself included, in that statement...). That being said, it really bothers me when he says something so proufound to be over my head. I give you exhibit A above!

Was I being made fun of? Was kip commenting on what he thinks Americans will do? Is he throwing out a fear? Is he citing a parallel experience? Kip, can you keep it a little dumber (i.e. less implication, more direction) for the rest of us? :lol:

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Kip
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by Kip » Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:16 pm

Maybe he was just rambling incoherently while waiting for MRI results....

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Zedman05
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by Zedman05 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:55 pm

Good points.
You can always tell when Kurt gets on the forums. All of a sudden we have new posts....but alas, it only lasts for a couple minutes then he is gone again. You would think he would be more active, seeing as he is a "show contributor" heh.

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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by Kip » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:10 pm

I keep meaning to have him drop by the introductions thread and tell us a bit about himself.



If he'd stick around long enough.
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kurtdesign1
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by kurtdesign1 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:42 am

Zedman05 wrote:Good points.
You can always tell when Kurt gets on the forums. All of a sudden we have new posts....but alas, it only lasts for a couple minutes then he is gone again. You would think he would be more active, seeing as he is a "show contributor" heh.
Dick!
Kip wrote:I keep meaning to have him drop by the introductions thread and tell us a bit about himself.
If he'd stick around long enough.
Dickhead!

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kurtdesign1
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Re: Havana dreaming

Post by kurtdesign1 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:42 am

I'm out!

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